Felicia Ellsworth: Welcome to In the Public Interest, a podcast from WilmerHale.

Del: Hi, my name is Del. I’m a summer associate in the firm’s Los Angeles office.

Sri: My name is Sri.

Maddie: I’m Maddie, a summer associate in the Boston office.

Alexa: I’m Alexa, a summer associate in the DC office.

Landis: I’m Landis.

Mallory: I’m Mallory, a summer associate in the firm’s Denver office.

Del: Working with all the attorneys, everyone was extremely smart. Everyone is extremely smart, but at the same time everyone is very kind and friendly and wants the best from you.

Alexa: One of my favorite parts of the summer program has been getting to know my summer class. Our summer classmates have a truly diverse set of experiences and interests.

Landis: You really get to get involved right away. These are teams of really accomplished, smart attorneys who are really willing to throw you right into the fray and give you substantive and creative work on each of the assignments.

Mallory: I’ve had the opportunity to draft sections of an amicus brief in the Eighth Circuit, write emails to clients, research motions to dismiss, and research appellate court rules and procedures.

Landis: That kind of trust and confidence and willingness to fold you into the team from the start was something I really appreciated about my summer.

Maddie: I’ve worked on a variety of corporate assignments, like sitting in on a board meeting, reviewing a licensing agreement, and diligence for a financing deal.

Alexa: It was fascinating to both sit in on the external interviews, the calls with the government and internal firm strategy sessions to understand everything that goes into the matter.

Del: I realized how strong of a practice Wilmer had with government work, and it’s a practice that I want to continue as an attorney.

Felicia Ellsworth: I’m Felicia Ellsworth.

Michael Dawson: And I’m Michael Dawson. Felicia and I are partners at WilmerHale, an international law firm that works at the intersection of government and business. For today’s episode, we’re giving you an inside look into our firm in a way that we’ve never done before. We’ve invited our 127 outstanding summer associates to join us in conference rooms across the country for a live recording of this episode. We’re going to be discussing our summer program and providing some advice for law students and early-career attorneys charting their course through the legal profession.

Felicia Ellsworth: And there’s nobody better to join us in this conversation than three of our outstanding partners, all of whom have been at the firm since they were summer associates themselves. We are delighted to be joined today by Tiffany Smith in our New York office, Nana Wilberforce in our Los Angeles office, and Drew Dulberg sitting here with me in our Boston office. All of whom are partners that started at the firm as summer associates.

Michael Dawson: Tiffany is a partner in our Securities and Financial Services Practice. She plays a number of leadership roles across the firm, including chairing the Crypto Working Group, working on the AI Working Group, the Women’s Leadership Initiative, the Pro Bono and Community Service Committee, the Diversity Committee and others. Nana Wilberforce is a partner in our Antitrust Practice. Although she’s based in the LA office, Nana embodies a true firmwide spirit in that she’s worked in not one, not two, but three of the WilmerHale offices.

Felicia Ellsworth: And Drew is a partner in our Commercial Litigation Group. His practice focuses on complex business disputes likely to go to trial, and he was a member of the team that defended Harvard College in the case challenging its consideration of race in the admissions process. Drew is also a familiar face to our Boston summer associates, as he is the co-chair of the Hiring Committee here in our Boston office. All three of these guests are experts on the firm, and all of those listening in today are in for a real treat. Thank you all for being here and joining us.

Tiffany Smith: Thanks for having us, Felicia and Michael.

Michael Dawson: Tiffany, let’s start with you. If we can go back to the beginning of your time, what drew you to WilmerHale?

Tiffany Smith: So, I was one of the unique law students that understood exactly what they wanted to do when they left law school, and in particular I wanted to join a niche practice, so securities-broker dealer, which most people still don’t know what that means. So, for me, my decision with respect to law firms was about which firms had this practice, and it’s pretty niche so it’s really a handful of firms. I decided on Wilmer based on the people here. I thought the people were the nicest, the smartest, the work was amazing, and as compared to my experience interviewing other places, Wilmer felt like home. And I’ve been here ever since.

Michael Dawson: Excellent. Nana, same question to you. Tell us about what drew you to the firm and what was it about WilmerHale that you thought was special?

Nana Wilberforce: Yeah. So, I was really lucky because I did a joint degree with public health and that gave me more summers. So, I had the opportunity to work in New York, work in DC and really get to know people and have a little bit more time to understand what the work would look like. Similar to what Tiffany said, I had the opportunity to try different things and I had a pretty open mind about what I was doing and what I might want to do. And Wilmer just has this fun, nerdy, substantive piece that some of the other firms don’t have, which was really interesting to me.

Felicia Ellsworth: All right, Drew, let’s turn to you. Thanks for joining us on the podcast today.

Drew Dulberg: Happy to be here.

Felicia Ellsworth: For the listeners to the podcast who might not be familiar with our program, can you give a day in the life of the summer associate here at WilmerHale?

Drew Dulberg: Sure, and I think part of the answer is there probably isn’t a typical day and that’s what makes the practice of law and the practice here interesting and exciting and has kept me here for 15 years very happily. I think it’s important to note there are three prongs of our summer program here across the firm. One is the work, the other is the social aspect, which is really about building a class and cohering with new friends who have a whole range of different interests. And then the third is training, and the training is both how to become a better lawyer, whether that’s in terms of corporate work or trying cases and getting experience on your feet, which we do provide to summer associates, but also training of what does it mean to be an attorney at WilmerHale. What are the practices? What do our attorneys here do on a day-to-day basis? And so, a typical day-in-the-life would include certainly some component of work. Probably a social aspect as well. They’re constantly events that are a lot of fun. Going out to Fenway Park is certainly a highlight of the summer. And then there’s probably a training aspect along the way.

Felicia Ellsworth: And Drew, you were a summer associate here at WilmerHale too, right?

Drew Dulberg: I was.

Felicia Ellsworth: Why did you decide to come to Wilmer?

Drew Dulberg: I came to WilmerHale for a number of reasons, including that I was told that you could be a trial lawyer at a large law firm here, and I believed it and it proved to be true.

Felicia Ellsworth: Tiffany, welcome back to the podcast. First of all, I know you’ve been a repeat guest for us, so thanks for joining us.

Tiffany Smith: Thanks for having me.

Felicia Ellsworth: What’s one thing that you were hoping to get out of your summer experience at WilmerHale?

Tiffany Smith: So for me, I took the time to really get to know everyone and understand what it meant to be a regulatory attorney, to just really dig in, and that was my goal. I was able to satisfy that goal, get to meet a bunch of clients, people in the group. And I think that’s one of the great things about being a summer associate. In law school, you get exposure to a bunch of projects and sometimes very similar to what you may do as a practitioner, but most of the time they’re not, and so being able to really lawyer and practice I think is a huge benefit of the summer program and what I was hoping to get out of it.

Michael Dawson: Let’s talk about some of the highlights. Throughout your tenures, you have each attended numerous summer coffees, lunches and other events. Nana, what are some of your favorite summer program memories?

Nana Wilberforce: I love that you get the chance to experience the city almost as a tourist in some ways that you wouldn’t normally do. So, in DC we had this event where we would go sailing in Annapolis. And we had spent all day on a sailing boat and then we would get the blue crabs. I’m from the West Coast, so I had to learn that and then have them all spread out the table and get cracking. So, that was really fun not just because that’s an amazing day, but it’s a really great time to have a long period with attorneys. And when you have a long period, you get into good professional conversations and good personal conversations and really learn a lot about people.

Michael Dawson: Very nice. Tiffany, as a partner, how do you view your role in the summer program and what do you think summer associates bring to the firm?

Tiffany Smith: To use a sports analogy, I think it’s like being a player-coach. So, from a coaching perspective, my role is to first advise on the best restaurants in the city, the best places for coffee, in New York where you are most likely to spot a celebrity. But from a substantive perspective, it’s guiding summer associates on how we do the work, where to look for research, how to draft a memo, how to draft a brief, etcetera. As a player, my job is also to demonstrate what it means to be a regulatory attorney, to be a fintech attorney, be a crypto attorney, and what that means is creating opportunities and spaces for summer associates to see me on calls with clients. To see me on panels. Last year, we took a group of summers with us to talk to members of Congress. With respect to the summer associates, I think that they bring a lot of energy. They bring a lot of intellectual curiosity. And so, with my practice focusing on emerging technologies, I work with a lot of novel issues where there’s really not direct law on point. Having folks with different experiences, different backgrounds and different viewpoints is super helpful to me in how I think about how to solve really technical and complicated issues, so I just love having them around to kind of move on things and giving them interesting projects to think about.

Felicia Ellsworth: Let’s talk about some of that substantive work. Our summer program, as Drew laid out, has a lot of components. One of them is doing some work. So, Drew, tell us about some of the types of assignments that our summer associates are working on right now and who they might be working with.

Drew Dulberg: The short answer is everything and everyone. In terms of what some summer associates work on, it’s actual assignments that are needed by attorneys on a day-to-day basis across all of the firm’s practice areas: regulatory, litigation, strategic response, real estate, tax, you name it. Summer associates are doing that work, real work that our clients need. It also encompasses, I think really importantly, observational opportunities and pro bono. On observational opportunities, one example that just springs to mind for this summer, Felicia was working on a trial that went on for several weeks here in state court in Massachusetts. Summer associates got to come watch and then I think even more fun, debrief with members of the trial team around what happened, why did it matter, how does it fit into the puzzle of the bigger trial of what they saw that day? And then just briefly on who summer associates work with, it’s everyone from first-year associates all the way through the most senior partners. And so, they really get exposure to everyone, and not just in their office either. We are really one firm and our summer associates get to work across all offices worldwide.

Felicia Ellsworth: See, we do go to trial, right?

Drew Dulberg: We certainly do.

Felicia Ellsworth: I’m going to go back to you, Nana. Is there a particular assignment or experience that you worked on during a summer that influenced your trajectory at the firm and the practice you chose to pursue?

Nana Wilberforce: I think there are two. So first, as Drew mentioned, those observational opportunities were really important. I thought I was going to do health law or maybe intellectual property, but I was really open to trying everything. I wanted to get an observational opportunity, so this one came up in antitrust. It was really cool, I got to help with an interview outline for this big cartel or price-fixing investigation with one of our partners, Steve Cherry. I got to go to the DOJ Antitrust Division to the super intimidating meeting. There was a translator involved, there was FBI agents involved, and I got to sit in that experience and now that’s literally what I do for work every day. So, it turned out I loved antitrust. I love learning about markets and all the work that that entails, and it can include regulatory, litigation, and corporate work. And so, I ended up doing that for the next 10 years. Also, when I came here, I really valued pro bono work and got to start to build a relationship with the NAACP Legal Defense Fund. And then later ended up being our Pickering Fellow back in 2017, which meant I got to spend six full months at the NAACP Legal Defense Fund in New York working on voting rights and economic justice cases, and cases about letting high school girls wear their hair the way they wanted to. So that’s work that I get to continue now and definitely changed the trajectory of my career.

Felicia Ellsworth: And Drew, what about you? Any particular assignments that stick out?

Drew Dulberg: Yeah, it was funny, I joined the firm to try to get as close to trial as I could, but right after I joined as a summer associate, the firm, to its  delight, won a case in the Supreme Court called Boumediene v. Bush, which related to rule of law and whether individuals could be held indefinitely without being charged, even if they were accused of horrible things, and one of the assignments that I got in the wake of that landmark ruling was to write a letter to the clerk of the Supreme Court identifying factual errors in their opinions. It was just this unbelievable experience that opened my eyes to the things that people at this firm work on, and it was a lot of fun.

Michael Dawson: So today we’re speaking in person with a number of law students who are in our summer associate program. But there may be people listening to the podcast remotely who are thinking of going to law school or in their first year and are thinking about what they might do with their upcoming summers. There are also early career attorneys out there listening remotely. And so I’d like to ask our panelists what advice you have for them. As you reflect on your own careers, what were some of the early career experiences and decisions that you think were important to enabling you to navigate a career at big law the way you wanted to?

Tiffany Smith: The first decision is which law firm you summer at, and you make that right decision by conducting a lot of research and in talking to people to get a really good feel for the firm. And so, a firm can have a great practice that you’re really interested in, but if it’s not a great fit as far as your personality and the way you like to practice law, whether you’re a very formal or informal, even just the feel of the firm, those things make a difference in your success. So, the number one thing to do is research and talk to people to get a feel from the firm. And I think from there you start to think about practice areas and opportunities and which types of opportunities the firm has in its clients. But by far the number one thing I think is the people. Every firm describes themselves as being collegial, but the thing that I’ve learned over the years is that collegiality means different things to different people. So really, testing that and understanding the firm’s culture, I think are the utmost importance.

Michael Dawson: That’s great. Drew, over to you. What advice would you have for law students or early career attorneys as they think about the types of skills, experiences and decisions they should make as they chart their course?

Drew Dulberg: It’s a good question and I think the question has the answer embedded in it, which is to be thoughtful and proactive and kind of steer your own canoe. It’s very easy at any large law firm to just receive assignments and continue to do good work and advance over time. But I think the people who are the most successful and also the happiest, and I think this is a place full of the happiest lawyers that I have ever known, are thoughtful and directive about who they work with and the types of cases or matters they work on, and it is a place where you’re able to take charge of your own career and so that would be my advice, to be thoughtful, deliberative, proactive, and make sure that things aren’t just kind of happening to you, but that you’re steering the ship.

Michael Dawson: Nana, what advice would you have for law students and early career attorneys as they chart their course?

Nana Wilberforce: I would say to be confident and build confidence. And on the first piece being confident I didn’t know any lawyers when I went to law school. When I got here, I learned law firm names when I was trying to get a job. And you’re also talking to these incredible lawyers every day, so it’s intimidating. And so, I think you didn’t get here by accident. You’re here on purpose. You have to remember that even when you’re getting red lines, when you did it wrong, you’ve got to remember to be confident and you’ve got to remember to provide your voice. And then you also have to build confidence. And so, that means your work product needs to be good. Your work product needs to be on time, you need to be available. You need to be communicative. You need to be clear. You need to build your skills. If you want to be a great litigator, like Drew, you need to get on all the litigation matters and build that skill.

Felicia Ellsworth: Okay, so, we’ve got summer associates in all of the offices of the firm and we would love to hear any questions you all have for this esteemed group. Alright, we got one in Boston.

Orna: Hi. I wonder if you have any recommendations of people who are maybe going into their 1L summer. What’s the best opportunity to take or internships to look for in preparing for hopefully a 2L summer internship?

Felicia Ellsworth: Great question. The 2L summer at a firm is a pretty well-worn path. The 1L summer has a lot of different opportunities. So I’ll throw it to our three panelists to see who wants to start.

Drew Dulberg: I’ll jump because just including because I’m in the room and also wearing my co-chair of the hiring committee hat. For the three of us who are on this panel today, that 2L summer was the last job that we may ever have started, and it’s the last time I updated my resume. That’s obviously not everyone’s path, but it puts more importance on the 1L summer. This may be the last opportunity you have to do something that you would never do again, and something that’s different and interesting. My advice to any law students who are listening would be to do something that you’re really interested in, that’s a little different than what you might want to spend the rest of your life doing, because you have the rest of your life to do that. Whether it’s a different geography or a different practice area, I would just urge you to find something that is really going to excite you every day for 10 weeks, and then you have plenty of time to work at a large law firm after that.

Felicia Ellsworth: Great. Other questions from our summer associates in the audience?

Wesley: Hello, as a summer associate you’re given a lot of mentors, a summer co-chair mentor, a peer mentor, a partner mentor. I was wondering what the process of mentorship and career development looks like when you come back as a junior associate and then onwards throughout your time at the firm.

Tiffany Smith: So, the good news is, once you come back as an associate, you still have 18,000 mentors. All joking aside, you do have a number of mentors. We have what’s called the Career Advancement Program or CAP program. And through that program, you have a partner that’s assigned to be your mentor. You also have a buddy that’s more of a peer mentor. And those two folks, both at the peer level and partner level, provide insight as to what appropriate assignments you should be doing. Your partner mentor’s job is to make sure that you’re developing in the proper way, so that you’re getting the experiences that someone of your seniority should be receiving. And the other important part of the firm culture is the informal mentors. It’s important to realize that a counsel, a partner, someone else you work with closely, even though they’re not on paper your mentor, they also could act as a mentor to you, and I think those informal mentor relationships are probably the most important one that you form over the years.

Felicia Ellsworth: Great. Question in LA.

Sarah: Yeah, I’m curious for all of you, you transition from being a summer associate to a first year, and I’m curious what that process is like for you. And in reflection, if you have any advice for those of us who may be in your shoes soon.

Nana Wilberforce: I think when you go from summer associate to an associate, you kind of get a fresh start and you want to present yourself, really be present and just make sure you are showing that you are enthusiastic and ready to work and want to learn. It’s really about having that energy feel contribute to Wilmer and to contribute to your own career as much as you can in the beginning. There’s still lots of events, though, you know. It’s still fun.

Drew Dulberg: The experience of being a summer associate should make the experience of being a first-year associate sort of easy and seamless, and part of the objective of the summer program is to build this cohort of people. The folks in the room with you, and also the other summer associates at the same time, across the firm, are like 100 friends that you’ll have for the rest of your career, both at the firm and beyond. And so, being able to start work with a group of friends is incredibly helpful and makes that transition easier.

Nana Wilberforce: I would also say to just reach out to people that you had lunch with or that you worked with. Time goes by and matters go by, but when you come back, if you remember a partner or counsel you wanted to work with shoot them a note or go visit their office if you can. Don’t be afraid to reach out and say, oh, I really want to work with you again or ask questions or whatever it was like, just to renew your relationship.

Felicia Ellsworth: Great. Thank you all. This concludes our first-ever live recorded podcast episode. Thank you to those of us who joined here in Boston and all around the firm. And Tiffany, Nana, Drew, thank you so much for coming on pod.

Tiffany: Thank you.

Drew: Thanks for having us.

Nana: It was fun.

Felicia Ellsworth: And thank you everyone listening for tuning into this episode of In the Public Interest. We hope you’ll join us for our next episode. If you enjoyed this podcast, please take a minute to share with a friend and subscribe, rate, and review us wherever you listen to your podcasts. If you have any questions regarding this episode, please e-mail them to us at [email protected].

Michael Dawson: For our WilmerHale alumni in the audience, thank you for listening. We are really proud of our extended community, including alumni in government, the nonprofit space, academia, other firms and leadership positions in corporations around the world. If you haven’t already, please join our alumni center at alumni.wilmerhale.com so we can stay better connected. Our show today was produced by Arpi Youssoufian, sound engineering and editing by Bryan Benenati and Jon Widgins, marketing by Emily Freeman and her team, all under the leadership of executive producers Kaylene Khosla and Matt O’Malley. Thank you for listening.

Felicia Ellsworth: See you next time on In the Public Interest.